62. Derek Sivers helps You to help your fans,(Part 1)
season 3, episode 2
Welcome to Musicians Tip Jar where we talk about musicians and money. Today we get the gift of diving into the mind of CDBaby founder, Derek Sivers. The best way to understand how this business works is to think about it all from your fans perspective. That is sort of our theme today. But there is SO much in that concept from how that helps you help them and how to allow your fans to help you. So sit back and let us help you!
Quote of the week
“Money is just a representation of value, so be valuable. people like to pay” -Derek Sivers
I’ve been a musician, producer, circus performer, entrepreneur, TED speaker, and book publisher.
Monomaniac, introvert, slow thinker, and love finding a different point of view.
California native, I now live in New Zealand.
Non-profit of the week
Merit School of Music is a nationally accredited music school located in Chicago’s West Loop. Our primary goals are to help young people transform their lives and experience personal growth through high-quality music education.
For more than 40 years, we have been home to a diverse community of talented young musicians and have acted as a springboard for achieving full musical and personal potential. Our passionate and experienced teaching artists provide access to high-quality music education, engaging over 2,500 students annually at our downtown location and in area schools and community centers. https://meritmusic.org/
Episode: 62
What a great time we had talking with Derek. He is as kind as he is articulate. We explore his ideas from his latest book, “Your Music and People” as well as how musicians are often missing some of the biggest opportunities their fans can give; their talents and time. Derek Sivers first made his name commonplace with the creation of CDbaby but since selling the business in 2008 for 22 million he has continued to help the music community with his invaluable insights through writing and speaking. We hope you get as much out of this interview as we did!
CHRIS WEBB: Today we get the gift of diving into the mind of CD Baby founder Derek Severs, the best way to understand how this business works is to think about it all from your fans perspective. This is sort of our theme today, just coming from the title of help us help you on how to help your fans help you to get that. But there's so much in the concept from how that helps you help them. How lost is everyone?
Dave Tamkin: Do you need to get the script to Jerry Maguire? Read it directly.
CHRIS WEBB: Right, right. But there is so much to the concept from how that helps you help them and how it allows your fans to help you. I promise this all makes sense. Now, sit back and let us help you.
CHRIS WEBB: We explore today the ideas from his latest book, your music and people, as well as how musicians are often missing some of the biggest opportunities their fans can give their talents and time he first made his name commonplace with the creative community by creating CD Baby. But since selling that business in 2008 for 22 million he has continued to help the music community with his invaluable insights through writing and speaking. We hope you get as much out of this interview as we did.
Alright, musician, producer, circus performer, entrepreneur, TED speaker and book publisher, Mondo maniac, introvert, slow thinker, California native and now living in New Zealand. Welcome to musicians tip jar. Derek Severs
DEREK SIVERS: Thank you. At first we were starting with the adjectives I went, is that me? Oh, that is me. I mean, a maniac. Yeah.
CHRIS WEBB: I love that you have this way with your writing, of always finding the point. And making that the focus. I think a lot of us have a harder time doing that. But there's so much in just that little intro that I want to ask that I don't think we have time for but the one one I have to ask “What you did in the circus?”.
DEREK SIVERS: Oh, yeah. There's it's actually a fun story. Okay, you know what, that's a beautiful intro to start this interview with because it's directly related to the Musicians Tip Jar a mission. So imagine this, I was 17 years old. I had just moved from Chicago to Boston to attend Berklee School of Music. And I was in a band with this guy that was a year older than me who had been doing more gigging around Boston already. He was a bass player. And when I say in the band with, I mean, we were doing some gigs together at Berklee School of Music. Sure. So one day, he turns to me, and he's like, I got offered this gig to play at a pig show in Vermont for 75 bucks. I don't want to do it. Do you want to do it? I was like, hell yes. 75 bucks. My first paying gig Fuck yeah, count me in. So he gave me the information. And it turns out, it's like a $50 round trip bus trip from Boston up to Vermont, to go to this pig show and the guy hiring me is just really vague. It's just like, yeah, it's a big show. So you're a musician. Right. So put on your guitar, no walk around and entertain the crowd. You know, you're a roving musician. Let me know how it goes, he's not even going to be there. So they just tell me where to go. I catch this bus up to Vermont. I don't even remember how I got from the bus station to the pig showed, maybe somebody picked me up. I get his pig show, I walk around with a guitar on my neck and I just playing guitar for two hours until somebody comes and thanks me and takes me back to the bus station. And it's like, yes, my first paying gig.
I was so psyched. But then the guy that hired me a couple days later said, Hey, so I heard good things about you from the picture. They said you did a good job. So look, I've got this circus. And the musician just quit. So I need a new musician. So why don't you come out and join the circus. And it was a, like a six person circus like performing troupe based in Western Massachusetts, and I was in Boston, which Eastern Massachusetts so it was always like a two hour bus each way to go out to these gigs. And so first, they just said, alright, well, you need to learn some kids songs, you know, we performed to audiences like age three to 12. So learn some kids songs. So I went down to the record store, we used to have record stores. And there was a an album of kids songs by Barry Luis Polly saw that was called like naughty songs for kids. I was like, now that's where my style I don't want to play. You know, if you're happy and you know it, clap your hands, I want to do something cool. So there were songs like, Don't stick your finger up your nose. Never hit your sister with a frying pan, and songs like that. So I learned songs by Barry Luis polystar, who later became one of my clients, which was really touching, but that was unclear. And I would just go perform them to audiences of kids like 20 to 200 kids, I'd play these songs. And then I ended up turning them into skits to like, get kids up on stage to perform, don't stick your finger up your nose or whatever. But then also, when I joined the circus, they said, Hey, so the previous musician used to kind of go out and open the show with the opening song and close the show with the closing song. And eventually, they said, and he would go out in between every act and introduce the next act. So it turns out at the age of 18, I was basically the ringleader, MC, musician, of a circus. And that was my first paying gig, it was wonderful.
I did ended up doing it for 10 years, my $75 a show, I just kind of increased my value until eventually it became $300 per show. And this is in 19 $90. And eventually became my full time living. I was like making a living and paying my rent in New York City by being a musician, emcee of a small circus in Massachusetts, the guy that gave me the first $75 gig, like you never know what little tiny gig is going to turn into a bigger thing. And that's like, I think like early in your career, it's best to say yes to everything, because you never know what little tiny thing is going to turn into a bigger thing.
CHRIS WEBB: We preach a lot about how that's kind of like the trend is always start by saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And as you gain it, you start to say no, no, no. Right? Like, yes, it learn what to say no to, you probably wouldn't go back to the circus now would you?
DEREK SIVERS: No, it might be fun someday to start my own circus, like now that I know what was involved. But it was also, you know, like, I don't think it would work in Colorado where you guys are like, it was definitely like the northeast corner of the US is very densely populated. So it made sense, like we would perform in a different town every day or every week. And there's just a lot of population that corner the country, whereas like in places that are more spread out in the west, it might not make sense.
CHRIS WEBB: And maybe that time period to right now nowadays. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody wants to see you be able to like bend yourself in half at a circus now, right? Like, Cirque de Soleil style. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely can't do that.
Well, we are so excited to have you here at muses tip jar and to discuss some of the money and business thoughts from your book. So the book is called your music and people. So can we start right with the title and just kind of give us a little overview how that title came about.
DEREK SIVERS: The book is coming… So you can tell from my initial story that I'm coming from the point of view of a musician, but along the way in, when I was like 30, I started selling my CD online. And then friends asked how I did it. And I said, well, here I'll do it for you as a favor. And that grew into CD Baby. So after I'd been running CD Baby for a few years, I felt like I was now on the other side of the music industry, right. I was I was an insider. I was talking with people in the record labels and radio stations and seeing how things got done to I felt like I was like a spy inside the industry. But I was in direct commission occasion with all of these musicians because of CD Baby. So I ended up telling musicians what I was discovering from the inside of the music industry. And from just being like the guy on the other side of the counter in a way at CD Baby selling CDs to fans. So your music and people's really a book of basically how to connect with your audience better how to sell more music, but how to be remembered better, how to be more effective in your actions. How not to waste your effort. Yeah, how to be more effective. So then the title itself, your music and people. I mean, your music is obvious. But essentially, I just realized most of these things come down to counter intuitive people, tips, like tips on connecting with people, because it can be really counterintuitive, like the psychology of marketing, the psychology of connecting with people, and even the word marketing, we often mistakenly think marketing means spamming and advertising announcing. But marketing can often mean just being considerate. And like thinking of it from the other person's point of view. When somebody goes out to a concert at a club on a Thursday night, what are they really hoping to get out of that event? When they leave what would be a considerate way of helping them remember what they saw tonight? It's thinking it's being considerate and thinking of everything from the other person's point of view. To me, that's what marketing really is. It's it's being considerate. So that's why the subtitle of the book is creative and consider it fame. Because it's also about not doing things in the normal way. And being creative, which in, in a meta sense, is very considerate.
CHRIS WEBB: Yeah. And I got that I just, I've read the book twice now. Because the first time I felt like I wanted to just like absorb it. And the small chapter style is really nice for that. It's really nice. And also, this was the first book that I had experienced the website attached to each chapter concept, which I don't know if you came up with that, or if someone else gave you the idea, but it's really great to expand it cool. Yeah,
DEREK SIVERS: you know what, you're actually the first person who said that they like that. I've never heard somebody say they liked it before. It's this thing that I put so much effort into doing and having a separate URL for each chapter. And, and it was like a lot of work to get the printer to include them in the footnotes down by the page numbers. And you know, crickets just got total silence. Nobody seems to care. Until you write and
CHRIS WEBB: I've been going, thank you. Yeah, when you go to those sites, there are plenty people commenting on them. And, and I, you know, I like how you left it open be like, let's discuss it further. And it's, by far the easiest way to make that happen that I find that I've seen anyone do so really impressive. So we're going to ask a couple of questions just about about your experience through this industry first, one of those is that you have worn a lot of hats in the creative world over the years, and as well as lived in a lot of different places, right? Do you find that artists can generally take the same approach to making a living in most places that you've spent time
DEREK SIVERS: if the most places I had lived were places like Sweden, Argentina and New Zealand, then I'd think that it might be the same, but because the places I lived were Chicago, Boston, New York City, Portland, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Singapore, New Zealand. There's a clear outlier of LA and New York, right? Like, so many things I did in my career only happened because I was in New York City. When I was in LA, I, I didn't move to LA until I was running CD, baby. So I never was in LA as a musician, but I mean, I, I knew a lot of musicians in LA, but I was only a professional musician, myself in Boston in New York. There is okay, in my ideal world, we would all be able to live anywhere, we'd all be able to live in whatever nature paradise you wanted to live in and use the Internet to connect with the world. But I got to admit, even though that's the world I would like to see, there's something about being physically present living in New York City or Los Angeles. That just does wonders for your career. So many people I know that are actually not great musicians, but just okay, musicians get amazing income from having their music played all over film and TV just because they live in LA. Like just because they happen to live in the place where these movies and TV shows are being made. They get their music all over it just because they're there. They just know somebody who works there and somebody brings it in. And same thing with New York City, but in a more diverse way, there's so many records being made in New York City. So many just deals happening in money flowing that.
Like for example, I ended up getting a great gig playing guitar for this Japanese Popstar, when I was 22 years old. It was an amazing giggle. You know, at the age of 22, I was playing to stadiums of 10,000 people across Japan for a solid month. And it was just because I lived in New York City. My roommate was an assistant engineer at a recording studio where this musician was recording. And so my roommate, the assistant engineer mentioned it to the recording artist, that his roommate was a guitarist. And that's how I got the gig. Just because I was physically present there. So I think that um, if you are young and ambitious, and listening to this, you should move to New York City, Los Angeles, maybe London, maybe Nashville is like the here B. But really just LA and New York, so many things happen there. You just can't even describe like what leaps and bounds your career will take just by physically being there and then making a point of meeting everybody once you're there, but just not even just visiting but physically living there makes all the difference in the world. So no, there are not a lot of similarities between New York City and say, New Zealand or even Singapore, Singapore is a 6 million people in a city. It's a lot of money flowing there. But it's all in the world of finance. There's like nothing going on with music in the arts there. Yeah, it surprised me too. I just assumed that it would have a whole local music scene but really not. It's just doesn't click with local culture. Probably the same thing with you know, Zurich, or places like that. Whereas on the other hand, Reykjavik, Iceland is only a few 100,000 people. But there's a lot going on musically in Reykjavik, Iceland is just a real creative hotbed. So but probably not, you know, it's probably all export. There's not actually like a lot of money to be made in Reykjavik, Iceland to making music. But it's a creative hotbed. So anyway, yeah, every place has their own thing.
CHRIS WEBB: It's really, really fascinating to me that no matter where you are, though, if you just find a way, if you get involved, you do tend to find a way to at least make it your living. And you've emphasized the importance of being a competent novice at business, and building your team. Can you give us some examples of this, in your experience, when you were building CD Baby,
DEREK SIVERS: Competent novice to me means that you don't have to hire the best booking agent, for example, you could just learn, you could read one book about how to book gigs, and then just do what it says. And you'll probably be good enough to be a part time booking agent, whether for yourself or for others, you know, so even if you've got a friend, that is somewhat ambitious, but feeling a little lost, and not sure what they want to do when they like music, there's not a big difference between the professional booking agent and the novice, you're not like somebody who's basically just read two books on it and just said, let's give this a go. Let's try it. Not a huge difference. There'll be some lessons, they'll have to learn from actual interaction with the target audience in other venues. But I think we need to kind of lower the pedestals that we have people on thinking that we need to only work with the the best of the best. So competent novice for yourself, though, means like, kind of like we know how to drive, right? Okay. Most people over the age of 18 or 20 know how to drive a car. We're not expert drivers, we're not f1 formula racers, but we know how to drive a car. And I think that we should have those kinds of skills when it comes to say like just tech skills. The basic ability to book a gig to find some gigs. You should think of it like driving a car. Like if you think of how many hours you spent learning to drive a car. It was no substantial right? Wasn't it like 20 or 30 hours it took to learn how to drive and to get your permit and practice and then you're doing it. So I think putting in 20 hours into learning how to book gigs is very smart or putting 20 hours into reading some books about Guerilla Marketing. For example, there those books have fallen into obscurity a bit but there's a brilliant series of books called guerrilla is spelled G u e r r i l l a guerilla marketing by Jay Conrad Levinson, who I think has passed away now but in like the early 90s, he had this brilliant series of books called guerrilla marketing that were so creative and would really apply to a lot of musicians today, especially because they're not in the current zeitgeist, like, not a lot of people are reading these books, you could go back to these books by Jay Conrad Levinson, and pick up some amazing creative ideas on how to get your music into places that that aren't oversaturated, you know, in a new creative ways. And that would be being a competent novice at marketing, just reading a few books and giving it a try.
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Action:
List a few of your top fans that might be willing/able to help you with something you need in your music business. Ask them.
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outro:
As always, Thanks for joining us and remember there is already enough for everyone, you just need to know how to get it. Until next time, on behalf of Dave Tamkin and myself, Chris Webb. Wishing you great happiness, health and wealth…
Remember, small gestures of gratitude often make the biggest impacts. This is Musicians Tip Jar
*Nothing on this show should be considered specific personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax legal business or financial professional for individualized advice. Individual results are not guaranteed and all discussed strategies have the potential for profit and loss. Those are operating on behalf of musicians Tip Jar LLC exclusively.
