71. Be Creative and Happiness Will Follow
season 3, episode 11
Episode: 71
Welcome to Musicians Tip Jar where we talk about musicians and money. We believe music can let you experience life with a different kind of happiness. And it spreads happiness by sharing your music. I’m Chris Webb, joined by our co-host and happiness super-spreader, Dave Tamkin.
Quote of the week
“If you have the trust and belief to stand up for yourself than the world will reward you” - Chadzilla
Chad "Chadzilla" Johnson has made a name for himself in Denver as many things: a drummer, vocalist, educator, studio owner/engineer/producer, and composer. For nearly 30 years, he has performed with a multitude of local, national, and international touring acts, recorded a number of albums of his own as well as those of his musical brethren, and improved the lives of future rockers with private and group lessons. He takes great pride in his work, whether it be behind a drum kit, helping others realize their full musical potential through his lessons, or making a band feel comfortable in his 25 BPM studio when recording their albums.
Non-profit of the week
Founded in 1979, Swallow Hill Music (SHM, Swallow Hill) is a Denver-based 501(c)(3) organization that strives to positively impact the quality of people’s lives through music. SHM operates a music school and three performance venues at its Broadway & Yale location, and produces outreach activities and community events throughout the Denver metro region as an SCFD-funded Tier II organization with a $6 Million annual budget (2019).Swallow Hill is a nationally-revered hub for concerts, classes, and community, and is a recipient of both the Mayor’s and the Governor’s Award for Excellence in the Arts, and an inductee of the Colorado Music Hall of Fame and Folk Alliance International’s Business Lifetime Achievement awards.
Chris Webb 0:15
Welcome to musicians tip jar where we talk about musicians and money. We believe music can let you experience life with a different kind of happiness and it spreads happiness by sharing your music. I'm Chris Webb joined by my co host and happiness super spreader. Dave Tamkin
Dave Tamkin 0:31
during the pandemic when you would smile at someone and they didn't smile back, but you forgot you had a mask on. But you ever get offended.
Chris Webb 0:40
So the tree in the woods thing, smile in the mask. Many people believe that happiness is a choice. What is your opinion? I like to think it's a series of choices that lead to a state of happiness. And perhaps the biggest choice we get to make in the free world is what we do with our time. Our guests Chad Zilla is a mint example of this. We discuss how to find places you are needed and how exploring our creativity effortlessly enables our income diversification.
Dave Tamkin 1:13
How many times it said diversity or diversified or anything with diversity in the last episode, you could add a drinking game out of it. I listened back to it and like say it one more time say diversify one more time. Of course, I'm talking to myself, but it was it was almost too much.
Chris Webb 1:31
Today's quote comes from our guest Chad Zilla. If you have the trust and belief to stand up for yourself, then the world will reward you.
Chris Webb 1:40
This week we're bringing back swallow Hill music because Chad Zilla works there and does a great job at being part of that community. So they were founded in 1979. Swallow home music Denver based nonprofit strives to positively impact the quality of people's lives through music. Sh M operates Music School and three performance venues at its Broadway and yell location in Denver, and produces outreach activities and community events throughout the whole metro region. Check out swallow Hill music.org
Chris Webb 2:11
We often forget how powerful sharing creativity can be, and how much it affects our audience and community. We feel the need to be creative, but it is only by following that need into action and making choices to pursue the opportunities that feel right that we reap the rewards of this feeling called happiness. Let's explore this further. In the second half of our interview with drummer vocalist, educators, studio owner, engineer, producer and composer and really nice guy, Chad Zilla.
CHADZILLA 2:53
I've managed to stop working with people that would suck the energy out of me.
Dave Tamkin 2:57
The music suffers, the work suffers. Yeah, your time suffers.
CHADZILLA 3:01
Yeah, right? Well, and and at the end of the day, it's like, you put a lot of work into somebody else's vision. And then to realize that man, they can just fire you whenever they want. Just because you you know, you just never really mattered even if you were part of that initial process of making it happen. And in the beginning, it's it was really a drag. I actually wrote a song because of course I read I'm sure Chris does this too. I write songs about everything. And I wrote a song about a band that I was in that just I thought that these guys wanted me in this band, like not just a drummer, I thought that they wanted me and for two years, we were recording an album and we were touring. And we were playing and we're just kicking ass all over the country. And then just to realize that, no, they just wanted a drummer that it wasn't me. I wasn't this special part of the chemistry of what was making this happen. You know, it hurt deep. But I took the lesson I learned a lesson from that just like delivering paint. You know, I was like, Nah, I want to avoid this in the future. Yeah, I had some great opportunities playing with that band had a lot of fun, but man, it is toxic. And at the end of the day, it was like what did I get out of that?
Dave Tamkin 4:08
So with navigating that stomach instinct feeling for, say, future projects, we had an interview with my friend Stoli, and we were talking about shows say back in the early 2000s Or for you 1960s Some of them are still pay us
Dave Tamkin 4:27
it's gonna keep going
Dave Tamkin 4:33
some of these shows, and again, it's our fault for even taking these shows paid the same as they did in like 1990 or, you know, 2000 How have you navigated that with the other things that you do in this business? You know, you have the factors of who you hang out with because of the joy they bring to you but also you have to make economic and monetary decisions for not only the projects that you play with but how how much you're charging for lessons? Or how much are you going to charge? You know, swallow Hill? How have you navigated that over the years?
CHADZILLA 5:07
Yeah, you know, and I, it's funny because I saw that question on there about, you know, budgeting and stuff. You kind of asked that question.
CHADZILLA 5:15
You know, it's been really funny because I've, I think I have only raised my rates as teachers, a private teacher, like just a couple times through the years, but I've always been able to weather the storm, and financially and even COVID. Like that was the amazing thing was once COVID happened, like almost everything shut down for me. But I found a way because of the three different careers that I have that are all somewhat integrated, that I found a way to be able to pay my bills through that, that period, you know, so I did this, PBS, which I love PBS, right? They came in did a thing on me at swallow Hill. And it's like a little video that's on my website. And it's really cool. It's really well produced by a guy who's now a good friend named Jeffrey Dally, and he asked me about how I got started. And like, I was telling him about my first gig that I played with my brother's band. So my brother who, Michael Johnson, who teaches at Berkeley, he's seven years older than me, so he was in college, and I was in middle school, and I played my first gig with him, which was a frat party in Greeley, because he went to UNC. And I said, in this little interview, that was amazing. It checked every box, I got free Doritos, I got as much Dr. Pepper as I wanted, all night long. All the college girls thought I was just this cute little drummer guy, because I could sing really high and I play drums really fast. And I got paid 50 bucks at the end of the night. And he said, Well, you know, how does that how's that feel now and I said, Well, I don't really eat Doritos or drink Dr. Pepper anymore. But I don't get paid much more than 50 bucks. And like, I was so glad that he put that in that little in that little interview thing. Just because I It's funny how like even saying that the wages for musicians has not gone up very much. But also then same thing, like if you think if you're a band and you're playing at a club, let's say you're playing covers at a club, and you get some kind of guarantee, or an original band that you have to sell tickets for in order to make money, like the price of beer hasn't gone up very much, either. Through the years. I mean, it's gotten more expensive, especially as all these craft beers kind of happened. But it's like the industry financially hasn't changed very much through decades. Now, you know, you're lucky in a way that was Spotify and YouTube. And you know, I use distro kid, I upload all my albums and my peoples albums to their butt. And they'll send it to all these different places, right? But you know, how many millions of streams you need to get before you even start making any significant amount of money. Whereas, you know, back in the day, you would add your CDs. And you know, we laugh about your merch box that you bring Dave Right.
Dave Tamkin 8:00
Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know you were laughing. Oh, we Yeah, that's Brad
CHADZILLA 8:03
and I we laugh Oh, God about but okay. But you know, I mean, but, you know, here we are, we're trying to like, like, we're trying to sell our stuff. Because we know that sometimes that's maybe the majority of the money that we're gonna make and the tab at the end of the month. Exactly, exactly. And then you know, and it used to be that you could sell CDs, and people would buy your CDs. But now everything, you know, you could find everything and I know where musicians, we all know all this story. But so even a little bit of income is is less. And I know that I just a guy reached out to me, for a wedding reception asked to hire my 80s band were called the asteroids that we've played hundreds of gigs, like dozens of weddings through the years. And he said, How much would it be to play for three hours, and I told him a number. And he's like, that's too much. And I was like, I theoretically should have told him three times that number, because we're worth three times that number. But I was just in the interest of trying to get the show, try to get the wedding, you know, the gig for the guys. It's like, I told him a lower number and we lost it. And he was probably going to go with the DJ. So it's like, it's a strange, very strange conundrum. Because when you can, when you for people in a band who've devoted years of their lives to learning their instruments can be replaced by a DJ, without a bout of an eyelash, that's a little bit of a shot to the heart. You got to try to rectify that in your brain, you know, so finding ways, you know, keeping, keeping playing, you know, I think learning, learning how to play bass learning how to play the guitar, learning how to be a music director has helped me because if I was just solely a drum teacher, I would have had to get a real job years ago because they're just not at now with YouTube. There's so many YouTube tutorials for drums, you know that so many people learn how to play just watching videos on the internet that you know, even the music teachers kind of are becoming maybe a little bit passe or you know, just not as important as they used to be 40 years ago, 50 years ago, you know when Dave started, and it's funny too because I am Just a couple years old. Yeah.
Dave Tamkin 10:03
But I mean, you know, anything a shout out to Berkeley, just for still keeping your brother hired at the SEC. Yeah, for being that much older than you? I mean, I didn't know they let professors teach at that age.
CHADZILLA 10:16
I know at that age totally well, and they did. I don't know if you know, but they just went through a contract dispute. And they My brother was kind of leading the union of teachers at Berkeley, and they were threatening to strike because the, the tuition at Berkeley has raised 300% In the last five years. And, you know, the, the professor salaries is very minimal compared to that, but they negotiated a new contract with Berkeley. So I mean, a little guys when I think
Chris Webb 10:43
the lesson there is they asked, I mean, not just ask, but as exactly strongly, and I feel like the same results have happened when I get gigs. I have no problem saying no, if they offer me a lowball number, because I almost always find the higher the group that's willing to pay more. Yeah, I just like you said the word Trust earlier. That's been that's been the longevity of your career has been based on that trust. That same thing happens to me all the time. When it's like a wedding. If I don't play that many weddings anymore, because somebody would lowball me of it, you know, it's fine. But yeah, I'd rather have that weekend day with my kids, you know, exactly. But then always, when I turn those down and use that power to say no, something bigger comes, you know,
CHADZILLA 11:25
right, exactly. It's, it's almost like, like, if you have to trust and belief in yourself to stand up for yourself, then the world will kind of reward you just even for having the courage to say no, and to be vulnerable enough to like, maybe put yourself out there on the line. And, you know, maybe I might not make rent or pay the light bill or something. Which reminds me, I got to pay the water bill for this place.
Chris Webb 11:50
Just last weekend I had and I feel like this is a reoccurring conversation I have with not just students, but other fellow musicians is like we all need to say no to those low paying gigs, all of us unless you're just starting out, those are not for you. And so you're not only doing a disservice to yourself by saying yes to that, you're you're affecting all the other professionals that are around you that are debating, or that are saying no to those because then somebody's leaking out of there, you know, yeah, your water bill is having a problem there because we're all of a sudden, all losing that water and that money totally
CHADZILLA 12:26
Well, there in the 90s there was a group of musicians, promoters, and you know, kind of people in in the music industry here in Denver that started a thing called the Colorado musicians Association, almost like a musician's union, the sad thing was the DNA acronym was coma, which was like, man, they gotta find out, so maybe something better than that. But I remember we, I played with this girl named Liz Clark. And we, they would always have some musicians that would play their meetings. And this was when the soil dove was downtown, kind of close to Coors Field. And so we play on we played, we were the band that played on a Sunday afternoon for the meeting, the whole meeting, the community getting together and turning down, either free gigs, or like really low ball paying gigs, right, and everybody in the room said, we're gonna do this, we're all gonna, we're gonna make these clubs pay us better. And honestly, man, it lasted maybe a month. And then we just found out that there were just some bands that were just like, hey, now, we'll just we did some gigs.
So we'll just go and play some free open stage things. And it's like, that's why I kind of stopped playing, you know, I even stopped my students from even entering Battle of the Bands contests, because it's like, wow, here, you have six weeks of free entertainment, that you're just begging these bands, or telling these bands that you better bring all your friends for six straight weeks, you know, to this thing, or else you'll never make it to the finals, you know, and just these clubs that host these things, it just like, it just was really a bummer, you know, and now I've got some students who have put together kind of some amateur bands, you know, they're they're good enough to go out and play some cover classic rock clubs and stuff like that. But they're, they'll go on and play for tips or for a bar tab. And I know that in in the club owners mind, that's just starting it. They're just thinking, hey, if I can get a band, that's good enough, but I don't have to pay him I just give him beer and food tab then hey, that's that's the precedent that gets set. That's, I think, the hard thing that we all need to come together, you know, because when you're a real band, not trying to dog these guys, that they're not a real band, but when you're a band that's like, been together with professional level musicians. And you go in there and you say, Hey, okay, we'll play your club on Friday night for three hours, but we need to make at least 500 bucks. There'll be like,
Chris Webb 14:39
the thing is to sometimes when you when you take when you turn down five gigs that are going to pay you well let's see as to the threat with the math. If you turn down four gigs, they pay you $150 And you get that one gig that pays you 600 Have you lost anything? No, you have gained time. You'll gain time to do whatever you want with that time, whether it makes other places or just enjoy yourself And so it's just there's, I have to just remind myself that I really don't want to play those gigs anyway. Right? She doesn't feel bad about saying no, because that's gonna suck. You know what exactly,
CHADZILLA 15:10
yeah. Yeah, the load in dealing with the hecklers. All the people that tell you, you know, that are requesting songs all night long. You know, that's the other thing too, is I think I have been a sideman for so long. And I mean, that's even how it Chris You might even know this, how I got in poly toxic, was they needed a they needed a drummer to fill in some gigs, and I started playing with them. And then the next thing you know, they offered me three house gigs a week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday nights, like basically as a sideman. And within six months, we had played the Fillmore, you know, so like we developed as a band pretty quickly. But I entered that group as a sideman. And as a sideman, you play a lot of different people's, you know, music, you play a lot of different kinds of functions, you know, you play these outdoor concerts in the park, you know, on Thursday night, during the summer and stuff like that. And I've played with a lot of people that I know, when they're writing me a check, I know that they haven't even made enough money on this gig to pay me. But they're writing a check to everybody in this band, because we're, we're professional, essentially session musicians, you know, and it's been really kind of crazy to see that and see that, okay, these are people that are willing to spend money to make money, you know, and the, but they want to have good professional musicians in their band, you know, musicians that will rehearse. Yeah, so it's been weird to to be on all sides of that to be a band leader, you know, where I've paid out of my pocket. I know, you know, I did an album release show with my band last summer at the mercury Cafe, and I paid, I paid my guys, and I barely made anything, but we sold some merch. And you know, but I just knew that that's what it was going to be. But I wasn't there to try to make sure that I was walking home with a big stack of bills, I was going, I was going to have the experience and to have the energy and to put out an album and to have fun and put something new and different into the world. But I can't do that all the time. So
Dave Tamkin 17:05
Chris, the worst part of that CD really show that Chad did was right before he starts playing, we're talking and this gentleman walks like right in front of us, and all the color leaves my face. And I get really nervous. And I look at him, like, I know that guy. How do I know that guy and I got really, you know, just anxiety, because that's totally buffalo. You know, he managed all the guitar centers in Chicago, you know, open up the first and I started working at Guitar Center and 18. And when he would walk in the room, all of us would get so scared shitless that Tony Buffalo was at our store that day. Yeah. And I'm 40 plus years old, standing in a room and that guy could still walk in the room for 20 years, and I'm like, Dad, help me, friend. Man, this is just another way how the world gets smaller that you know how many 1000 miles away your good friend is walking in a room that, you know, used to be my mentor as a sales person at Guitar Center.
CHADZILLA 18:07
And I told you the story about him, right, that he, I was music directing a band with with a guy, an older guy who was putting a band together kind of researching his career as he you know, from youth. And, you know, I was like helping them get songs together and set and we went and played gigs and, and Tony hadn't played for a long time with a band. And so they became friends. And he brought Tony and so I was actually Tony's like, music director in this band. And we became pretty good friends through that process. And he was so glad to have somebody like me in a musical situation, you know, professional who knew how to guide a band. And yeah, that's how we became friends. It was really cool. Not through Guitar Center.
Chris Webb 18:54
I want to make a point that, you know, maybe this is more just complementing and the way that you're functioning. It's a way something else again, that I see repetitively from people who have found their place in the in the industry, you know, and what you're doing, you're doing how many things like 10 different ways, let's say revenue streams of finding income. Yeah, and sometimes simultaneously doing those but what I don't hear from you is that this is overwhelming that this is stressful that this is you know, a negative over you know, over the top type of business that you've chosen. Instead, what you're saying is, this doesn't feel like work. You're saying this, this is just me doing me? This is me trusting the magic. In fact, you might even say that this is you enjoying the magic, right? Yes. And that is such a wonderful thing to see. Because that, that to me is what professional is when you're doing what you love is right. You found this place that you can exist in and thrive in, despite the fact that others might look at it be like how the hell is he doing all this? It's like this is great.
CHADZILLA 19:56
Yeah, right. Thank you for noticing that serious li that's something that I've at times I take for granted not, you know, more out of just naivete, but I just I just don't even think about it. But I know that I've got quite a few like high school students that come to me, you know, through my program at swallow hill or even here at the studio, and they just will universally agree that I am like one of the most happiest adults that they've ever met. And, and I said, Well, that's because I wake up every day and I, I am being creative, that my life is creative. I'm not following a system that was set in front of me that was put together by people that don't care about me. I don't go to work to make someone else rich. I don't go to work to make someone else have a great vacation. You know, which, which I feel so sad about so many people that that working class people, you know, because that's, you know, I'm essentially making working class wages. Right. But the joy that I get every single day, I mean, I woke up I was telling my buddy Ryan, like, I had a zoom call with him. About an hour ago, I was telling him that I woke up at 330 this morning and woke up with our newest band name like I dream band names, which I don't know if I don't know if I should say on this podcast, because someone will probably steal it. What do you think? Do you think I should? All right, all right. It's Sylvester Shalom. And I already see the logo. I see still Sylvester the cat, right? With the yarmulke and the braids. Right? And the you know, the the prayer vest, right? But he's like, got boxing gloves on to right? See, Sylvester Shalom. But But yeah, one boxing glove. And then the other hand is the peace sign. Right? Exactly.
Dave Tamkin 21:46
I've been very fortunate to spend a few mornings at that summer camp at swallow Hill. And Chad does walk in every morning like this. And I'll drive down from Boulder every morning to get there early, just so I can see him walk in, and it brightens up the room. And it also establishes a mood, the way that we're going to be creative for the day, it gets everybody energized. And it teaches people how to teach other people because Chad doesn't discriminate against young people. As far as the way he he talks to them. The way he motivates them, He gives everyone a nickname, which I mean, some shows we play he hasn't seen a student for, you know, maybe 1015 years. And he'll be like, Oh, rock set. Or you know, and it is just something special to see. And thank you for doing that not only for all the musicians that get to teach alongside you, but for all the musicians that you inspire.
CHADZILLA 22:52
Well, thank you, man, I appreciate that. I honestly, you know, me, I don't know any other way. Like I just, and I'm so blessed that I've gotten, I've been able to find my way, in a tough industry how to work with people that are cool and fun to work with. And sometimes at the expense of popularity, the expensive, you know, maybe working with a bigger name artists or a bigger band, but I've just, I just I don't want that in my life. You know, and, and I because I just want to wake up happy every day, I don't want to wake up nervous and anxious. And because there's enough of that anyway, just in daily living, I'm just fortunate that my passion is is my life.
Dave Tamkin 23:32
Well, thank you for sharing your story here. We really appreciate it.
CHADZILLA 23:36
Thank you guys for what you're doing. Because you're empowering musicians, more than you'll ever know, this is this is great, because there's a lot of musicians who just don't think that they can make it and they throw in the towel in a bunch of different ways. You know, and and lose hope and lose a brightness for their careers. And you know, and so you guys are doing a lot to help that will keep
Chris Webb 23:59
the light on and you come back anytime, right on brother
Dave Tamkin 24:07
I met Chad when I needed a like a drummer to fill in for a gig and I called my friend Dechen Hawk. And I said I need a drummer that I can tell what kind of mood he's in. By the way. He's playing his drums that evening. And he said right away CEDS Allah, and it's been a friendship for the last five plus years. It's fantastic. Because you always know what kind of mood he's in. He wears his heart on sleep, and just a pleasure to be around and a fantastic musician.
Chris Webb 24:37
Well, and you must be doing something right because he's someone who won't work with the wrong people. We did spend a lot of time talking about making decisions based on the pricing and making sure that you're being valued. This is something that comes up a lot in our conversations and it needs to because the music industry seems to be a snail's pace behind it. All these other industries, that price is raised with inflation, they rise up as value of those industries go up and popularity of them go up. But somehow, we're somewhere in this bubble. And so often we have to work a little harder to get the value that we deserve.
Dave Tamkin 25:18
I think you've been a advocate, not only for yourself when it comes to that, but part of the reason this podcast exists, is to remind musicians where their value is.
Chris Webb 25:28
Yeah, I mean, it starts with just realizing it, right, realizing your value, we're all in the process of realizing our value all the time. And you're always adding value to yourself, as you increase your abilities and, and, and your things you can offer as a brand. But me, it's just important that we're finding our place where we're needed in order for us to really get the value that we deserve. Because if you're in the wrong market, it's nobody's fault, but your own.
Dave Tamkin 25:59
And that goes with this, that goes for the same of who you're playing music with, as Chad was saying, if you're playing with the wrong people, you're not gonna succeed there either.
Chris Webb 26:08
It was fun talking about his experience with COVID. I think everyone has a story there. And you know, a lot of musicians didn't survive staying musicians. So it's great to hear a success story. And, of course, it's not a surprise, because he has, I mean, he's just his credentials, take us five minutes of the podcast time to get there, and they cut half of it out.
Dave Tamkin 26:30
So he did a great job at streaming outside his studio and did concerts all summer long. I was also had the opportunity to play a lot of outside gigs with him, which I think that's where we became even closer, because, you know, we got to see more of each other. And then also teaching, he was doing a lot of zoom calls all over the state. So it really did work out for him. And even with them mixing and mastering from his studio. He was able to do that via zoom too.
Chris Webb 26:58
Yeah. Were you guys doing like rooftop like Beatles style performances?
Dave Tamkin 27:04
Anything? Anything we could do? Ya play? Yeah, absolutely. And then at, you know, the Julian here, just it was nice. We had, we were playing like twice a month outside?
Chris Webb 27:15
Well, and speaking of negotiating your price, you know, that happens in every facet of the business, when we talked earlier about knowing your value. And, you know, we talked a lot about his his brother, in the faculty there at Berkeley, having to fight to get what they're do. Teachers are another area that are underpaid, and then you combine teachers with music, I think you've got a double whammy there. So I'm glad that they won that dispute. And it's really important that they stick to their guns. And that just as much as it is important that when you're taking those local gigs, that you're valuing yourself and sticking to it,
Dave Tamkin 27:54
I think it was also important for him to say, he's been a side man. And then also he leads groups too, because he also he knows what it's like to show up for somebody else. But he also knows what it's like for some, you know, to expect something from someone else to show up for him. And I think that, you know, a lot of musicians may not be able to see both sides of the fence like that, and you show up differently. For each things, one of the most professional players I've ever had the chance to play music with.
Chris Webb 28:26
It's sort of like how I often hear people say that everyone should work in the service industry wants, like maybe a server or you know, or, you know, in the hospitality industry, because you see the other side of how humans treat you, when they're the guests when they're, you know, the customer. And it's sort of that kind of way and the band's like everyone should be the drummer once. Yeah, to experience it. From that point of view. The main thing with our with our conversation that really stuck with me, was just that being creative equals happiness. And we see this over and over again, it kept it kept so many musicians happy during the pandemic, it kept so many musicians, it keeps us coming back for more even though we get beat up so often, you know, physically and mentally in this industry. But we we have this feeling of joy just from being creative. And, and we've seen so many of our guests find so many ways to be creative. One of the new things I'm adding to this class that I teach about music and finance is to make one thing that you have as a talent, take that one thing and list how many ways it can make you money because we have so much more diversification than we take advantage of. And so much of that is just got to be from our creativity. It's the only thing that's standing in between us is being a little bit more creative about it. I'm taking that class next year.
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CHADZILLA: https://www.chadzillamusic.com/
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As always, Thanks for joining us and remember there is already enough for everyone, you just need to know how to get it. Until next time, on behalf of Dave Tamkin and myself, Chris Webb. Stay happy, healthy and wealthy, to quote Julius Caesar, “Experience is the teacher of all things.”
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